We have people calling for revolution and rebellion in Afghanistan. For war. For people to protest and march, fight, kill and be killed.
Why?
Because the Taliban banned university education for women.
Really? This is why you want to call for war?
1
Why?
Because the Taliban banned university education for women.
Really? This is why you want to call for war?
1
When the Americans invaded, killed and dropped bombs on schools and hospitals, set up universities and schools to spread liberalism and attacked Islam...were u also calling for such things?
Why is it this issue is so so important to you that you would openly call for war?
2
Why is it this issue is so so important to you that you would openly call for war?
2
Is it fard in Islam? Wajib? Sunnah?
No. And you won't find any scholar of Islam before this past century arguing for such a thing. Secular education for girls, particularly high education like universities, is not an Islamic priority.
We have heard all the so called arguments
3
No. And you won't find any scholar of Islam before this past century arguing for such a thing. Secular education for girls, particularly high education like universities, is not an Islamic priority.
We have heard all the so called arguments
3
and evidences for such a position that "conveniently" aligns with western liberal idea about female agency and human rights. But they have consistently proved to be either misrepresentations or outright fabrications.
I'm sick of it.
I'm sick of the fact that people are
4
I'm sick of it.
I'm sick of the fact that people are
4
changing the deen to suit their desires and ideology.
I'm fearful also, of the fact that so many of the people doing this put on religious personas. I'm upsetbat their ignorance with resepct to this topic and it is ignorance- how many have a working knowledge of
5
I'm fearful also, of the fact that so many of the people doing this put on religious personas. I'm upsetbat their ignorance with resepct to this topic and it is ignorance- how many have a working knowledge of
5
how fiqh works? Usul Al fiqh? How many of them know the history of secular higher education? Are they reversed in educational philosophy? Do they know about liberalism/feminism/secularism? Nope.
Yet they keep talking.
I'm upset at their willingness to talk despite
6
Yet they keep talking.
I'm upset at their willingness to talk despite
6
their ignorance on the topic. But I'm also glad at their stupidity. Because if they were intelligent enough to be consistent, and weren't just a bunch of people following their desires, their methodology and principles, or lack thereof, would lead them to reject so many
7
7
things that have been established in the deen.
They don't realize that in ten years even their position on women's education will be regarded as archaic and old and against Islam. Infact it already is in many western Muslim circles who often call for stupid things
8
They don't realize that in ten years even their position on women's education will be regarded as archaic and old and against Islam. Infact it already is in many western Muslim circles who often call for stupid things
8
But instead of realizing this we hear the stupidest of arguments.
Like "Your against secular education, but your using a phone to tweet right now!". Trust me. It's not the gotcha moment you think it is.
No one is fully against secular education. I'm not.
9
Like "Your against secular education, but your using a phone to tweet right now!". Trust me. It's not the gotcha moment you think it is.
No one is fully against secular education. I'm not.
9
But what is education? Who is an educated person? Who should be educated? In what subjects and how do we determine this? How should they be educated? Should it be general? Should there be specialization?
This is just the tip, but basically, this whole topic has so
10
This is just the tip, but basically, this whole topic has so
10
many discussions that people skip over and do not even realize.
People are seriously so uneducated (irony) that they import a western vision, along with all it's philosophy and ideology, and just dress it up with some superficial things and present it as being Islamic
11
People are seriously so uneducated (irony) that they import a western vision, along with all it's philosophy and ideology, and just dress it up with some superficial things and present it as being Islamic
11
And then they have the audacity to call other ignorant and backwards
Absolutely ridiculous.
To start with there is a famous hadith that is often abused
طلب العلم فريضة على كل مسلم ومسلمة
Translation: seeking knowledge (ilm) is an obligation upon every Muslim
12
Absolutely ridiculous.
To start with there is a famous hadith that is often abused
طلب العلم فريضة على كل مسلم ومسلمة
Translation: seeking knowledge (ilm) is an obligation upon every Muslim
12
Summarizing from Al zarnujis book taleem Al mutaallim:
What this means is not that it is fard upon every Muslim to seek every type of knowledge. Rather what is needed is that which that person requires in their situation. E.g. knowledge of Salah, zakah (if he has money)
13
What this means is not that it is fard upon every Muslim to seek every type of knowledge. Rather what is needed is that which that person requires in their situation. E.g. knowledge of Salah, zakah (if he has money)
13
knowledge of the fiqh of transactions (if he is a trader) etc etc
Basically, certain things are fard upon everyone to know, and some things are fard upon some people but not others, depending on their context.
Now, moving away from Al zarnuji, and btw his explaination
14
Basically, certain things are fard upon everyone to know, and some things are fard upon some people but not others, depending on their context.
Now, moving away from Al zarnuji, and btw his explaination
14
of the hadith is not unique, rather it's obvious to anyone who has studied even a little and has some proper grasp of Arabic since the narration is makhsoos, we also have actually, some secular subjects that are also fard
But not fard upon specific individual.
15
But not fard upon specific individual.
15
Rather, fard upon the ummah as a whole. E.g. yes, the study of medicine and engineering is an essential thing for society, and so it is fard for there to be education in this field. Literally nobody denies this.
This discussion is not, as some exaggerate, a discussion
16
This discussion is not, as some exaggerate, a discussion
16
between backwards people still stuck in the seventh century, as some people phrased it (way to make your intellectual bankruptcy and hatred of Islam apparent by using, verbatim, orientalist and modernist rhetoric...not that you would know since...well, your ignorant (irony))
17
17
Now, typically the above responsibility should be the mantle of men in the society.
Women are supposed to be in the home, private, dealing with the household. Men are outside working and public. That is the optimal vision islam has set out, in agreement with human nature
18
Women are supposed to be in the home, private, dealing with the household. Men are outside working and public. That is the optimal vision islam has set out, in agreement with human nature
18
If there is a necessity, then sure, then women will go out and work etc
You'd have to be a special kind of idiot to think anyone here is arguing for a poor woman who has no support to starve to death at home. Really? What type of idiocy! Are we speaking to sane humans here?
19
You'd have to be a special kind of idiot to think anyone here is arguing for a poor woman who has no support to starve to death at home. Really? What type of idiocy! Are we speaking to sane humans here?
19
Now, the above, and proving that gender roles are indeed part of Islam, requires, unfortunately, alot of discussion due to the current environment.
But I'm speaking to supposed "traditional" Muslims here who most of which accept gender roles as part of Islam
20
But I'm speaking to supposed "traditional" Muslims here who most of which accept gender roles as part of Islam
20
And so will skip over that. If you have an issue here, then this thread isn't for you. You need a therapist and it's not going to be me.
So, "traditional" Muslims who accept gender roles. Please. Please.
Do some research into family dynamics in the west
21
So, "traditional" Muslims who accept gender roles. Please. Please.
Do some research into family dynamics in the west
21
Amongst the kuffar because your ideas are literally going to lead Muslims in the same direction. They already are.
Anyone who has studied this know this.
And again, you can't just add superficial things and make it Islamic.
The setup itself is a fruit of
22
Anyone who has studied this know this.
And again, you can't just add superficial things and make it Islamic.
The setup itself is a fruit of
22
Western ideology and it's beliefs and values. Don't be stupid and think it's neutral.
Again, we aren't against secular knowledge, and so aren't saying secular knowledge is un-islamic or uniquely western and bad.
If you thought that you aren't listen or your stupid.
23
Again, we aren't against secular knowledge, and so aren't saying secular knowledge is un-islamic or uniquely western and bad.
If you thought that you aren't listen or your stupid.
23
What are some of the problems I'm referring to?
Well to name just a few off the top of my head
- Zina
- delayed marriages
- fewer children
- worse tarbiyyah
- less respect for parents
- increased divorces
- dissolution of family ties
24
Well to name just a few off the top of my head
- Zina
- delayed marriages
- fewer children
- worse tarbiyyah
- less respect for parents
- increased divorces
- dissolution of family ties
24
- removal of traditional safety nets.
The culture is set up in a way where people do not take care of their families. People are individualistic. Self centered. Materialistic, and much more.
The push for higher female education has a direct correlation to all the above.
25
The culture is set up in a way where people do not take care of their families. People are individualistic. Self centered. Materialistic, and much more.
The push for higher female education has a direct correlation to all the above.
25
There are even studies done by kuffar on this exact point, finding a connection between education and divorce, with higher education in women leading to higher levels of divorce
Now, there are typical feminist responses to this that like to spin this as a positive
26
Now, there are typical feminist responses to this that like to spin this as a positive
26
They don't realize just how ideological their responses is. I've heard it many times.
They need a therapist. I'm talking to people who claim to be traditional.
Do some research about what universal secular university level education for women leads to for society. Pls.
27
They need a therapist. I'm talking to people who claim to be traditional.
Do some research about what universal secular university level education for women leads to for society. Pls.
27
Oh...but female doctors you say?
There are alot of responses to this.
Firstly, again ... The need for female doctors doesn't logically extend to the adoption of a generalized, universal, education system in the model of western universities
Secondly, so all those women
28
There are alot of responses to this.
Firstly, again ... The need for female doctors doesn't logically extend to the adoption of a generalized, universal, education system in the model of western universities
Secondly, so all those women
28
we're studying to be doctors? No. They weren't. You also don't need that many people to study medicine and other needed fields.
We could just as easily make the argument for a specialized female medical college. That's actually something that could be relevant and sound.
29
We could just as easily make the argument for a specialized female medical college. That's actually something that could be relevant and sound.
29
If that last comment confused you, and your wondering why we are having this "discussion" when I just admitted I would be fine with a female medical university, then sorry but this discussion isn't for you.
Next point. Have any of you actually been to or graduated from
30
Next point. Have any of you actually been to or graduated from
30
A university? No, really. Because I want to know which planet you had this experience. It wasn't Earth for sure.
Will add to this in time but, again, just off the top of my head, you do know that even the kuffar are having discussions about how useless universities
31
Will add to this in time but, again, just off the top of my head, you do know that even the kuffar are having discussions about how useless universities
31
and degrees can be? (There is a point here to be said about degrees vs education but I won't mention it here)
So many people are ending up in debt and unable to find jobs after graduating from universities.
Those who do find jobs often complain about how useless 90%
32
So many people are ending up in debt and unable to find jobs after graduating from universities.
Those who do find jobs often complain about how useless 90%
32
of the content they learnt at university was to their occupation.
You, yourself, how much of your highschool knowledge is relevant to your life today? Be honest.
And yet you want to make this issue into such a vital issue for Afghanistan? For Muslims and Islam?
Hmmm
33
You, yourself, how much of your highschool knowledge is relevant to your life today? Be honest.
And yet you want to make this issue into such a vital issue for Afghanistan? For Muslims and Islam?
Hmmm
33
Additionally. And idk if he may add more to this. But this brother makes a good point.
The outrage is crazy and makes no sense. Complete nonsense and out of touch with the reality of the situation in the country.
34
The outrage is crazy and makes no sense. Complete nonsense and out of touch with the reality of the situation in the country.
34
Here's another absolutely insane person.
It's funny that his name says tawheed and here he is making takfir.
This isn't kufr. This is not a solid argument, and hence I'm tracking this on here and didn't start with it, but those who are against
35
It's funny that his name says tawheed and here he is making takfir.
This isn't kufr. This is not a solid argument, and hence I'm tracking this on here and didn't start with it, but those who are against
35
what has happened here has done here...ppl like this, absolute ignorant ppl...they are mostly the ones who are standing in your corner with you.
Advise, btw, for ppl to look into the Prussian model of education. This is the origin.
36
Advise, btw, for ppl to look into the Prussian model of education. This is the origin.
36
Loading suggestions...