After my thread on the Bucha-deniers, @KitKlarenberg, one of those featured, responded with…more Bucha-denial.
Kit does atrocity-denial for a living. Problem is, he sucks at it. So I’m gonna do it over for him.
Even then, we’ll see, this B.S. doesn’t withstand scrutiny.🧵
Kit does atrocity-denial for a living. Problem is, he sucks at it. So I’m gonna do it over for him.
Even then, we’ll see, this B.S. doesn’t withstand scrutiny.🧵
@KitKlarenberg In my previous thread, we examined one of the main conspiracy theories about Bucha: That numerous dead civilians lying along Yablonska street, as seen in a viral 4/1/22 video, were killed not by Russian forces but the Ukrainian troops who liberated the town.
@KitKlarenberg Here’s the thread I wrote on the Bucha-deniers. In it, I also reviewed the remarkable amount of evidence of Russian atrocities journalists have uncovered there, including the infamous murders from the 4/1 video.
@KitKlarenberg I hesitated to respond to Kit’s latest nonsense out of a concern that doing so might validate him as a some kind of legitimate participant in public discourse. Make no mistake: He is not. And yet non-experts might have trouble seeing why. So I decided to respond after all.
@KitKlarenberg But I’ll do more than that. Instead of merely debunking Kit’s dumbass claims, I’m thought I’d teach him some lessons about how he could have better used this opportunity to gaslight about Bucha—because he did fuck it up pretty bad.
@KitKlarenberg In the process we’ll see that even if one makes the strongest possible case for Ukrainian culpability for Bucha (which Kit is too incompetent to do), and even if one relies on the most charitable possible reading of the facts, the argument still fails to withstand scrutiny.
@KitKlarenberg Look, Kit Klarenberg is small potatoes. He doesn’t merit another thread, certainly not one of this length. But I’ve got a broader purpose here: To lay out all the available evidence for the theory that Ukraine massacred civilians in Bucha only to then debunk it.
@KitKlarenberg So, lesson #1: Don’t make wildly fantastical claims that most people will immediately recognize as nonsense.
Kit makes just such a claim in the tweet below: “If [the] established narrative of Bucha is true,” he says, “then it was…unprecedented action by the Russians.”
Kit makes just such a claim in the tweet below: “If [the] established narrative of Bucha is true,” he says, “then it was…unprecedented action by the Russians.”
@KitKlarenberg Let’s get the obvious out of the way. To say Kit Klarenberg lacks expertise on Russia or Ukraine is akin to observing that, say, Kid Rock’s understanding of endocrinology is not up to par.
The guy knows fuck-all about this stuff and has no business commenting on it.
The guy knows fuck-all about this stuff and has no business commenting on it.
@KitKlarenberg If you heard your neighborhood mail carrier musing about the luminosity of recent gamma-ray emissions from galaxy M83, would you take him at his word? No? Well, that’s pretty much Kit Klarenberg when he calls *anything* about Ukraine or Russia “unprecedented.”
@KitKlarenberg So even if it were true that the Russian army never before engaged in the mass-killing of civilians, Kit Klarenberg would be among the last people on earth to know.
But the thing is, it’s not true. Russia *has* done it before. A lot. In Ukraine and beyond.
But the thing is, it’s not true. Russia *has* done it before. A lot. In Ukraine and beyond.
@KitKlarenberg In Oct. 2022, a special U.N. commission issued a report on human rights violations in the regions of Kyiv, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Sumy. It found Russian attacks on civilians not just in Kyiv, where Bucha is located, but in all four provinces. documents-dds-ny.un.org
@KitKlarenberg By March 2023, the same U.N. commission had confirmed 68 summary executions of civilians by Russian troops. It documented such cases in 17 localities across all four provinces noted above—predominantly but not exclusively in the Kyiv region. ohchr.org
@KitKlarenberg Given the limitations Russia has placed on the U.N.’s ability to investigate areas it controls, the Russian atrocities it has uncovered to date are likely a fraction of the true number. Tellingly, Ukraine has offered the commission its full cooperation. Russia has not.
@KitKlarenberg Even before its 2022 invasion of Ukraine, Russia already boasted a long record of killing civilians in conflict-zones. In Chechnya, for example, the European Court of Human Rights has decided 31 cases of extrajudicial executions by Russia and its proxies. srji.org
@KitKlarenberg Russia, along with allied forces, also engaged in the indiscriminate killing of civilians during and after its invasion of Georgia in 2008. hrw.org
@KitKlarenberg In Crimea, too, International Criminal Court prosecutors allege that Russia and its proxies are responsible for the deaths of civilians. But given the severe restrictions Russia imposes on outside investigations there, such cases are difficult to confirm. courthousenews.com
@KitKlarenberg So, yeah, when Kit Klarenberg asserts that Russian attacks on civilians in Bucha would mark “unprecedented” conduct on its part, he is wrong.
I hope you all were sitting down for that.
I hope you all were sitting down for that.
@KitKlarenberg But that’s not the only claim Kit makes that’s flagrantly and obviously false. Citing another reporter, he also suggests that Russian forces mostly left the residents of Bucha alone.
@KitKlarenberg That’s right; in Kit’s mind, the main conclusion to be drawn from dozens of investigations into Bucha by the AP, NYT, WaPo, NPR, BBC, WSJ, the U.N., etc., documenting murder, arbitrary detention, torture, and sexual violence is that Russian troops largely left these people alone.
@KitKlarenberg I mean…
@KitKlarenberg In sum, by making assertions that are bullshit on their face, Kit wastes little time in burning his credibility to the ground. Best not to do that, Kit.
Let’s move on to the rest of his response:
Let’s move on to the rest of his response:
@KitKlarenberg Below, Kit posts a video of Ukrainian fighters (albeit not from Azov) discussing whether to shoot anyone not wearing blue armbands, which Ukrainian soldiers sometimes use to identify one other.
@KitKlarenberg The video depicts members of a combat group led by Sergey Korotkykh, a Belarusian neo-Nazi. It was initially publicized by a pro-Russian propaganda account to support the conspiracy theory that the bodies shown in the viral 4/1 footage were killed by Ukrainian forces.
@KitKlarenberg But the video’s metadata reveals it was shot not on April 1st, when the infamous footage of the bodies along Yablonska street was released, but the next day. So it says nothing at all about possible Ukrainian responsibility for those killings. meduza.io
@KitKlarenberg As for Kit’s point about “the presence of Russian food parcels, and corpses wearing white armbands,” I’m not sure what this proves other than that Russian soldiers brought food with them and didn’t refrain from killing civilians wearing white arm bands.
@KitKlarenberg In a futile attempt to avoid mistreatment by signaling support for Russian troops, many Ukrainian civilians did brandish white bandages on their arms. But—shockingly, I know—this did not necessarily prevent Russian soldiers from shooting them. life.pravda.com.ua
@KitKlarenberg Still, if the video above doesn’t prove Ukrainian culpability for the specific murders in the 4/1 footage, is it still possible that Ukrainian forces killed other Bucha residents it deemed “traitors?” Technically, yes. But Kit does a piss-poor job of proving it.
@KitKlarenberg Kit acknowledges Ukraine might not have been to blame for the crimes revealed in the 4/1 video. Still, he suggests, given the Korotkykh video and Ukraine’s overall record of killing alleged collaborators, its possible role in other Bucha atrocities “can’t be ruled out.”
@KitKlarenberg While it’s technically true that Ukrainian culpability for other deaths in Bucha “can’t be ruled out,” neither can the possible role of aliens from outer space. In reality, however, some possibilities are more likely than others, and it is this issue that needs resolving.
@KitKlarenberg As a professional atrocity-denier, Kit has no use for the time-consuming work of sorting through evidence. He need only offer enough anecdotal references to sow doubt in the mind of his audience. As long as he manages to do that, his job is done.
@KitKlarenberg Which probably explains why he simply ignores the mountain of evidence I included in my own Bucha thread. If you take stock of it all, it shows Russia was responsible for far more deaths than those revealed in the 4/1 video.
@KitKlarenberg Considering the dozens of Bucha killings for which reputable media outlets and international organizations have unequivocally proven Russia’s guilt, it strains credulity to believe that Ukrainian soldiers committed most of the other 1400+ murders in the town.
@KitKlarenberg Regardless, let’s examine Kit’s claim that Ukraine has killed or mistreated alleged collaborators in all recaptured territory.
To support that assertion, he offers…a single screenshot from a British tabloid and two photos which may or may not have been taken in Ukraine.
To support that assertion, he offers…a single screenshot from a British tabloid and two photos which may or may not have been taken in Ukraine.
@KitKlarenberg Here's a direct link to the tweet so you can see this evidence, or, rather, what Kit Klarenberg regards as evidence, for yourself.
@KitKlarenberg Now I’m no journalist, but it seems to me that if you’re intent on proving Ukraine killed and tortured alleged collaborators, it might be advisable to look beyond a single article from The Daily Mail, a rightwing U.K. rag.
@KitKlarenberg Which gets us to Lesson #2: Use sources with a modicum of credibility. The Daily Mail? Not credible. The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR)? Very credible. In fact, as of 1/23, the OHCHR had documented dozens of killings of alleged Russia-collaborators.
@KitKlarenberg Here’s a link to that report: ohchr.org
@KitKlarenberg The OHCHR expresses “concerns” that the Ukrainian government bears responsibility for some of those murders. But it doesn’t know how many victims fall into this category, as opposed to those killed by vengeful citizens acting independently.
@KitKlarenberg Nor does the OHCHR clarify whether “dozens” of such murders means 25 or 95. Regardless, the true number could be considerably higher. And that technically leaves open the possibility that Ukrainian forces were to blame for some of the Bucha killings.
@KitKlarenberg Actual murders aside, the OHCHR has documented numerous cases in which Ukrainian forces arbitrarily detained, tortured, and otherwise mistreated alleged collaborators. ohchr.org
@KitKlarenberg Now, you might not trust Ukraine’s official position that Russia was responsible for all 1400-odd corpses discovered in Bucha. If so, that’s fine. But you must still reckon with the dozens of Russian murders of Bucha residents confirmed by international media and the U.N.
@KitKlarenberg See, again:
@KitKlarenberg The U.N., in fact, found vast disparities in the amount and severity of war crimes Russia and Ukraine have each committed, including but not limited to the killing of civilians. This matters when evaluating which side bears most of the blame for Bucha. ohchr.org
@KitKlarenberg During Feb-Mar 2022, the U.N. found a whopping two cases of possible Ukrainian war crimes across 4 regions, including Kyiv, home to Bucha. Both involved Russian POWs, not civilians. Of the total violations uncovered, Russia committed the “vast majority.” documents-dds-ny.un.org
@KitKlarenberg In fact, while the U.N. confirmed dozens of summary executions by Russian forces in the four regions, it did not find a single case in which Ukraine committed such acts—at least not during the specific period examined in that report (Feb-Mar 2022). documents-dds-ny.un.org
@KitKlarenberg Does this mean Ukraine committed no such crimes during that time? No, it doesn’t. But considering the U.N. found dozens of executions by Russia and none by Ukraine, it does increase the likelihood that Russia and not Ukraine did most, if not all, of the killing in Bucha.
@KitKlarenberg So while the U.N. believes Ukraine *might* be responsible for the deaths of *some* reputed traitors, the huge gap between the two sides in summary executions during the key Feb-Mar 2022 period along with overall war crimes doesn’t leave much doubt Russia was to blame for Bucha.
@KitKlarenberg Logic also suggests Russian culpability. If Ukrainian forces were guilty of more than a handful of the 1400+ dead civilians in Bucha, there’d be lots of pissed-off friends and relatives complaining about it to journalists and U.N. investigators. But that hasn’t happened.
@KitKlarenberg What you see instead are lots of pissed-off friends, relatives, and other witnesses complaining of mass-killings by *Russian* forces.
@KitKlarenberg For argument’s sake, I’m trying to be as charitable as possible in evaluating the thesis that Ukraine may have been to blame for a substantial number of the crimes committed in Bucha. But neither evidence nor reason remotely supports it.
@KitKlarenberg In sum, the evidence of Russian guilt for Bucha is enormous—sufficient, IMHO, to effectively rule out any significant role by Ukrainian forces in the deaths of civilians there.
And with that, may this mark the last time I ever again mention the name Kit Klarenberg.
/end
And with that, may this mark the last time I ever again mention the name Kit Klarenberg.
/end
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