Folks, “Lord of the Flies” is fiction made up by a weird guy.
All evidence on how people, including young boys, actually behave in desperate situations is the opposite. Shipwrecked people don’t turn on each other.
Nor will most of the Burning Man folks, if history is any guide.
All evidence on how people, including young boys, actually behave in desperate situations is the opposite. Shipwrecked people don’t turn on each other.
Nor will most of the Burning Man folks, if history is any guide.
I get people may not like Burning Man attendees. That’s besides the point.
From how the conditions are described, I would guess that they will pull together and have some of the most meaningful days of their lives. That’s almost always how it goes!
“Lord of the Flies” is a lie!
From how the conditions are described, I would guess that they will pull together and have some of the most meaningful days of their lives. That’s almost always how it goes!
“Lord of the Flies” is a lie!
Here’s an article exploring what actually happened when young boys were shipwrecked. (The opposite of Lord of the Flies) by @rcbregman who wrote a book about all this called Humankind.
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
@rcbregman Here’s a book that looks at all this systematically.
Note how it’s called “Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society.”
The idea that people under stress facing a disaster always turn into some sort of Hobbesian nightmare is absolutely false.
The opposite is usually what happens.
Note how it’s called “Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society.”
The idea that people under stress facing a disaster always turn into some sort of Hobbesian nightmare is absolutely false.
The opposite is usually what happens.
@rcbregman Why ruin the fun? 😬😬 To help people get ready for their return? 😁
My guess is they will talk about this week forever and ever.🤷♀️
But on a serious note: the Hobbesian assumption is very destructive. It causes authorities to act in ways that cause massive damage and death.
My guess is they will talk about this week forever and ever.🤷♀️
But on a serious note: the Hobbesian assumption is very destructive. It causes authorities to act in ways that cause massive damage and death.
@rcbregman Another book is Solnit's "Paradise in Hell". If you look at specific history, people band together under stress like this (an unexpected disaster etc.) and behave altruistically.
Remember the ugly stories about the Superdome during Hurricane Katrina? They were false. Made up.
Remember the ugly stories about the Superdome during Hurricane Katrina? They were false. Made up.
It doesn’t really apply to this, but the assumption of Hobbesian behavior has caused damage because authorities often go in with guns loaded (literally) to disaster zones expecting looting, savagery etc. and disrupt the altruistic organization people have and shoot them instead!
Humans are, of course, capable of terrible things. But as a *group* behavior, the terrible side comes out through political, organizing and systematic effort: wars and genocide, for example.
When stranded together, especially unexpectedly, the assumption should be altruism.
When stranded together, especially unexpectedly, the assumption should be altruism.
Also, I realize people may have forgotten after years of intense polarization, driven by political organization, but even the first few months of the pandemic were different. People pulled put together and wanted to do their part.
The disintegration came later and was organized.
The disintegration came later and was organized.
Sorry! 😁😁
The popular conception (“Lord of the Flies”, Hobbesian chaos etc.) is not only wrong, it causes immense damage to people who aren’t (yes, privileged and will be fine) Burners.
This topic that has been systematically studied.
But carry on! They’re stuck in the mud!
The popular conception (“Lord of the Flies”, Hobbesian chaos etc.) is not only wrong, it causes immense damage to people who aren’t (yes, privileged and will be fine) Burners.
This topic that has been systematically studied.
But carry on! They’re stuck in the mud!
If anything, I think this increases the odds they will mostly turn altruistic.
Altruistically banding together when facing an unexpected difficulty —just has to be serious enough— is highly energizing for many: an existential high, if you will. And how many chances do they get??
Altruistically banding together when facing an unexpected difficulty —just has to be serious enough— is highly energizing for many: an existential high, if you will. And how many chances do they get??
Yes. Highly recommended book.
Hah. Three readable books to counter the “Lord of the Flies” propaganda with reality:
@RebeccaSolnit “A Paradise Built in Hell”, @NAChristakis “Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society”
@rcbregman “Humankind”
Golding was a troubled individual whose fiction got it all wrong.
@RebeccaSolnit “A Paradise Built in Hell”, @NAChristakis “Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society”
@rcbregman “Humankind”
Golding was a troubled individual whose fiction got it all wrong.
What about the opposite end? The terrible human group behavior? The wars and genocides?
I have a short list for that, too! (I read so much more about that. It’s very important, in my view, to understand the political and organizational conditions that give rise to such horror.)
I have a short list for that, too! (I read so much more about that. It’s very important, in my view, to understand the political and organizational conditions that give rise to such horror.)
Yes, Burning Man mud is more like inconvenience and stress. One almost couldn’t plan it better: just enough stress to evoke group response, but not really a disaster.
I’m merely warning: the odds are they will emerge with positive stories and talk about this forever and ever. 😁
I’m merely warning: the odds are they will emerge with positive stories and talk about this forever and ever. 😁
Yes, “Lord of the Flies” is widely read and unfortunately contributes to misunderstanding human behavior—both good and bad.
Human do terrible things as a group, of course, but mostly under *particular* organizational conditions. In contrast, “disasters” tend to fuel cooperation.
Human do terrible things as a group, of course, but mostly under *particular* organizational conditions. In contrast, “disasters” tend to fuel cooperation.
Boarding schools are institutions. They don’t bring out “natural” human tendencies, they organize them into specific forms.
Lord of the Flies portrays cruelty as what’s left without supervision when it’s the specific institution & supervision that makes English boarding schools.
Lord of the Flies portrays cruelty as what’s left without supervision when it’s the specific institution & supervision that makes English boarding schools.
Anyway, sorry to ruin the fun, but a bit of mud is unlikely to smite the wealthy.
Making tax havens illegal and international jurisdiction for pursuing money amassed from corruption might work better!
(Why yes, I am the life of every party! What makes you think otherwise?😁😁)
Making tax havens illegal and international jurisdiction for pursuing money amassed from corruption might work better!
(Why yes, I am the life of every party! What makes you think otherwise?😁😁)
Read as “the norm isn’t”…. Atrocities like Batavia did happen, especially among ships with prior mutiny, but are NOT the norm.
(Not that many shipwrecks to island tbh but Christakis traces them all AND there are many similar situations that have been studied systematically.)
(Not that many shipwrecks to island tbh but Christakis traces them all AND there are many similar situations that have been studied systematically.)
You can read Lord of the Flies it as critique of a very specific institution, English boarding schools, but that’s just not why it’s so widely read or assigned. Who’d care as much if it was so narrow in focus?
It is seen as a treatise on real human nature. As such, it is false.
It is seen as a treatise on real human nature. As such, it is false.
I wrote a full piece about the topic, leaving this thread and muting (too many sub arguments and out-of-context tweets 😁)!
New thread below.
Gift link to full piece: nytimes.com
New thread below.
Gift link to full piece: nytimes.com
Loading suggestions...