It is a good thread, but there are some glaring mistakes in it that I could not ignore, so I will explain them to my followers.
People need to know that the Numic expansion accelerated in the 13th century, so contributing it to the climate of Wyoming is hardly justified.
The Numic people apparently wiped out the early inhabitants of the Great Basin and went upwards, towards the Rocky mountains.
The Numic people apparently wiped out the early inhabitants of the Great Basin and went upwards, towards the Rocky mountains.
Based on linguistic evidence, we know that they were an off-shoot to the Eastern Shoshone.
However, the Comanche retained some archaic features, thus we can conclude that they left the main Shoshone body around 1650 AD~ and went south.
However, the Comanche retained some archaic features, thus we can conclude that they left the main Shoshone body around 1650 AD~ and went south.
That being said, they were NOT outcasts. The current Shoshone reservations stretch from California to Idaho.
Pre-1785 Shoshone were the absolute powerhouse of the western part of the USA, clashing with the Blackfeet in their own territory and fighting them in Saskatchewan.
Pre-1785 Shoshone were the absolute powerhouse of the western part of the USA, clashing with the Blackfeet in their own territory and fighting them in Saskatchewan.
Calling them outcasts or claiming that they were bullied is unreasonable and I can immediately spot that you used Gwynne's book for your thread.
While the book is popular, it is unfortunately the reason why people make baseless and downright wrong claims about the Comanche-
While the book is popular, it is unfortunately the reason why people make baseless and downright wrong claims about the Comanche-
and their enterprises.
It ignores the early history of the Comanche and simplifying the relation between the early settlers (whether Spanish, Mexican, French or Anglo-Irish) and them.
Because of the lack of the Comanche perspective, the tribe ends up being portrayed as dull.
It ignores the early history of the Comanche and simplifying the relation between the early settlers (whether Spanish, Mexican, French or Anglo-Irish) and them.
Because of the lack of the Comanche perspective, the tribe ends up being portrayed as dull.
Thus you end up with claims such as these:
''So the Comanche, even more so than other Indian tribes, developed an extreme love of violence, torture, and war.''
You base this quote on what? You think that torture among the Comanche was different from other tribes?
''So the Comanche, even more so than other Indian tribes, developed an extreme love of violence, torture, and war.''
You base this quote on what? You think that torture among the Comanche was different from other tribes?
It wasn't any different from other tribes. Yes, there was a reason why, at times, the Comanche were brutal, but it can be explained through their worldview (and their shared heritage with other Uto-Aztecan people).
And while vengeful at times, they were not-
And while vengeful at times, they were not-
engulfed in madness and wrath. They were merciful to those who did not challenge them and usually left them alone (Wichita, the Pueblos) as for the Comanche, war is not a necessity, but a game to enjoy.
Can you enjoy a game if your opponent is weary and afraid?
Can you enjoy a game if your opponent is weary and afraid?
''The Comanche were the first tribe to adopt and master the horse for war.''
The Apache were ultimately the first natives to use it for war against the Pueblo and the Spanish.
The Apache were ultimately the first natives to use it for war against the Pueblo and the Spanish.
''So the Comanche migrated southwards to be closer to horseflesh, which they stole and bred and learned to ride on the Great Plains.''
That is not true, I will not bore you with the additional events that led to this migration, but to put it simply: The French lost a proxy war-
That is not true, I will not bore you with the additional events that led to this migration, but to put it simply: The French lost a proxy war-
against the Spanish in that region and the Comanche, being an ally to the French, had to move from the encroaching Utes.
They did (kinda) prefer the Southwestern region due to the abundance of trading hubs(Pueblos) compared to Texas and surrounding areas.
They did (kinda) prefer the Southwestern region due to the abundance of trading hubs(Pueblos) compared to Texas and surrounding areas.
''The Comanche multiplied and became the undisputed rulers of the American steppe, exactly like the Mongols or Huns or Yamnaya did with their koryos warrior brotherhoods. If given more time, they would have conquered the continent from Alberta to Oaxaca.''
Alright-
Alright-
comparing the Kรณryos with any of the mentioned examples is wrong. The Kรณryos is actually a tragic tale, rather than a story of great conquest that the three other examples had.
Yet none of the three examples are close to each other.
Yet none of the three examples are close to each other.
Comanche warbands were actually innovative as they did not have a single warchief. They did, in fact, not have a ''war chief''. If anyone wanted to start a raid or an expedition, he could just make a group of his own, without needing the permission of the elders.
This is why Comanche had a tendency to use different methods at different times, as it was the group who decided how to fight, not the warchief or the older warriors of the band.
No, they would not and wouldn't want to rule over Oaxaca. That is not how Comanche or Plain indian style expansion worked. It was never about the land, but about the buffalo and trade. Usually, plains were of interest to the Comanche, but assuming that they-
only there to catch buffalo is simplifying their relation with the settlers and other native american tribes. This is why they liked to be around trading hubs, for the Comanche did in fact like the commerce in the region. They did not want more land than that which they can hold.
The did in fact managed to travel to Yucatรกn and the Comanche word for monkey is kwasi taiboo or foreign (white) man with tail.
But they would not consider that to be a part of a conquest as none of the Comanche bands lived there.
But they would not consider that to be a part of a conquest as none of the Comanche bands lived there.
They did have a very bad relationship with the Mexicans, but that can partly be explained due to the Mexican government and its attitude to captive Mexicans.
The Comanche would not respect those whose own people did not respect.
The Comanche would not respect those whose own people did not respect.
The Spanish actually managed to ''subdue'' the Comanche, but not through force, but rather through diplomacy. The Spaniards made peace between the Utes and Comanche and used the combining force to crush the Apache.
The Spanish influence dwindled and the alliance broke down.
The Spanish influence dwindled and the alliance broke down.
''The Comanche never understood why the whites seemed to take this all so personally.''
No, they knew and understood it, but ask yourself; why would they care? The Anglo settlers challenged them in their own domains, which the Comanche found to be treacherous and impudent.
No, they knew and understood it, but ask yourself; why would they care? The Anglo settlers challenged them in their own domains, which the Comanche found to be treacherous and impudent.
''The Comanches had lived unmolested deep in the high plains for generations, so their perpetual weakness was lax camp security.''
That would have been a death sentence for the Comanche as other rival tribes would have exploited it. While this did happen, it was not the norm.
That would have been a death sentence for the Comanche as other rival tribes would have exploited it. While this did happen, it was not the norm.
The other half of the thread is about the Comanche warfare, which deserves its own thread. The reason why I am still semi-active is because of some threads (warfare being one of them) I am currently making. You'll see what I mean in a month, at the end of my Lent.
Thank you (or in Comanche, สra) for reading my thread, I can provide with citations if my followers/mutuals ask for it and show which books are reasonable about this subject.
If you have any questions, I will be happy to hear them.
God bless and take care.
If you have any questions, I will be happy to hear them.
God bless and take care.
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